Telephone conversation between John Gural and Ted Rosenberg
on Feb. 5, 2001, the morning of an evening borough council
meeting in Palmyra, during which there would be a vote for
municipal prosecutor and solicitor. The conversation below
reflects Gural's side of the talk; Rosenberg's side was inaudible.
Bob is Bob Leather, mayor of Palmyra when the tape was made.
Mark Tarantino is an attorney. He now is municipal prosecutor.
Lou Gallagher is the former Burlington County Democratic chairman.
Kenny is Ken Smith. He was a council member at the time of
the taping. Maryanne Hume was Palmyra administrator. Katie
is Katie Hartman, John Gural's attorney. Mark is Mark Neisser,
former president of JCA Associates of Moorestown and Gural's
boss. Pam is Pam Scott, a Palmyra council member. Elizabeth
is Elizabeth Harmon, former Palmyra council member. Norcross
is George E. Norcross III.
Gural: How ya doin'? No, no I, I got problems. I had a meeting
with Maryanne Hume at lunch time.
Pam was in attendance. Pam is supporting Gallagher.
No, she doesn't know anything. I, I ya know, I . . .
I know that, I know that.
Ted, but my whole thing is Kenny, Pam and I. That's it. That's
all there is to it. I could give a s--- what anybody else
does.
I already have . . . I spoke to Bob a few minutes ago, a half
an hour ago. I said, "Bob, I don't know a lot about what's
going on, and he reiterated he didn't want to know. And I
said, "If you were given a choice between Mark Tarantino
and Lou Gallagher, would you support Tarantino?" He said
absolutely, no questions asked.
OK? But I can't afford that because of my relationship with
Ken and Pam.ADVERTISEMENT - CLICK TO ENLARGE OR VISIT WEBSITE
Advertise with us!OK? That can't happen. Pam and I can't be
on the opposite sides of this thing.
Bob asked, he said well, he didn't expect it to come up tonight
anyway because next week, a week from today, is the official,
is the public council meeting. And I said, well, that's true,
and he said, is it on the agenda? And I said well, Maryanne
said it is and that's how I know it is because she brought
it up at my meeting and, you know, we got talking about it
and Pam said who she's supporting and the whole bit.
I'm thinking about buying a week on this.
What do you think?
Tell me your thoughts, though.
I'll tell you what, if Pam and I aren't on the same page,
then it interferes.
I don't know the answer to that, probably not. Probably not.
I, I'm sure that she wouldn't. I'm sure of it.
My, my other problem, I, I, don't know the answer to that.
But I also have to do the same to Kenny and Kenny is in .
. . ah, Colorado, skiing, OK, I think he comes back today.
So I ain't gonna see him until we're walking into the freaking
meeting.
Lastly, since I called you like, you know, 40 minutes ago,
or whatever, Katie called me. She has had no conversation
with the state yet as of today.
Conversation shifts to the state investigation
I feel like, you know, this thing is like . . . you know,
it's a big day and I got no direction, I got no direction
from those folks (laugh).
Ah, yeah I had a brief conversation this morning and I'll
tell you what was said. I walked in, I said, "Mark, have
you had a chance to speak to Norcross? What's going on? What's
the arrangement?" And he said no, he hadn't had a chance.
OK. He said but, ah, I think we're all on the same page. I'm
just gonna confirm that later today. When do you need to know
by? I said today is my meeting. He said I will tell you this
afternoon.
I'm waiting to hear back . . .
I, I know, it's, but I got all . . . What I'm saying is I
got all this s--- going on and it's f------ the eleventh hour
and . . . I don't know where my own attorney is coming from
or the state is coming from at this point.
Ah (Sigh).
No. I, I don't know. I, ah, I don't really, I don't know.
The conversation shifts back to municipal appointments. Well
I, I think the choice is we buy another week.
And that, but . . . but how do I do it. It should be done
at the public meeting, that would be the suggestion. That
would be why you were doing it. Let me ask you something:
If the appointments aren't made tonight, are you still a holdover?
Is Gallagher? (sigh)
What?
Gural talks about conversation with his attorney, Katie Hartman.
Ted, I understand that but I, but I still have not yet had
a conversation with... remember the last conversation I had
with Katie, OK, on Friday.
Correct . . . I bet . . . Oh, s--- . . . see now that's another
friggin' thing that I forgot all about. If I don't then this
can go 100 different friggin' ways. I forgot about that. Son
of a b----. Now she's calling, now she's with the state right
now. She told me to call her back in less than an hour and
that was 20 minutes ago, 30 minutes ago.
(sigh) Nothing, I'm just sighing.
The conversation shifts back to municipal appointments.
I need Kenny on board with that.
No, no I'm not worried about them. I'm not even thinking about
them. I can't side with them though against my people. That
can't happen.
No, I'm not gonna tell them anything. Well, yeah, I'm gonna
go one step further. I'm gonna say, hey, I don't mind supporting
Tarantino. I'm sure you don't mind supporting Rosenberg .
. . it's that simple.
Right.
And Pam.
How?
How could she blow it open?
And what is going on?
Ted, just keep in mind that everything we say here . . . Yeah,
I hear . . . well, you know. No, what I'm saying is . . .
no, no, absolutely not.
Right.
All right, worst case . . . could you just say something as
simple as possible to Elizabeth like we really should do this
at the council, at the public council meeting next week and
would she go along with that?
(sigh)
Ah man, I got too many freaking loose ends here.
All right, let me get back to you, I'll see what I can come
up with.
All right, goodbye.
(end of conversation)
Gural calls Ted Rosenberg in this undated tape and expresses
concern about the strategy investigators are proposing.
GURAL: Ted, Gural. I have got a hundred freaking problems.
I'm in my office, OK, I'm in, I'm in a secure spot. I just
got off the phone with Katie, OK? I don't know what the f---
is going on but now I have to get fired before the f------
meeting, and there's no way that is going to happen. I don't
know.
I don't understand. OK I don't . . .
Ted, I don't even know. I can't speak freely you know what
I mean so I can't be asking a hundred freaking questions.
I don't even have a freaking car. I can't even get hold of
my freaking wife. I don't know.
What?
Yeah, they have . . . they have something going . . . You
know what? Something else just occurred to me. I really shouldn't
even be having this conversation considering what, you know
. . . Well, yeah.
All right, these guys are done, dead. I've got all that all
right, That's done. History.
Here's the other problem. Norcross is not in town. So?
(sigh)
Ted, it's beautiful. I'm doing it. I'm gonna do it. I'm doing
it, I'm doing it.
Cancel it. We've gotta cancel it. It has to be canceled. That
is just too f---ing good. Listen, I need Bob Leather on board.
I need, yeah, she's got whole council to do it. OK, and we
need to explain to Maryanne . . . don't worry about solicitor
and prosecutor because they're holdovers, anyway.
OK? All right. Call me right back on my cell phone after you
speak to her. Thanks.
